Let It Be Known: Social Prescriptions Can Help: A Conversation with Julia Hotz, Author of THE CONNECTION CURE

Arts For EveryBody co artistic director Clyde Valentín sits down with journalist Julia Hotz to discuss her new social prescribing book, THE CONNECTION CURE, and what’s ahead for the arts and health movement.

ABOUT THE CONNECTION CURE:

As Hotz tours the globe to investigate the spread of social prescribing to over thirty countries, she meets people personifying its revolutionary potential: an aspiring novelist whose art workshop helps her cope with trauma symptoms and rediscover her joy; a policy researcher whose swimming course helps her taper off antidepressants and feel excited to wake up in the morning; an army vet whose phone conversations help him form his only true friendship; and dozens more. The success stories she finds bring a long-known theory to life: if we can change our environment, we can change our health. By reconnecting to what matters to us, we can all start to feel better.

CLYDE: Jules, thank you for joining us on this call. I mean, I, I recall first meeting you at a social prescribing USA event, if I recall correctly, at Columbia Presbyterian.  And there's a whole nother story why I remember all of that because,  you know, but that's another story.

JULES: That's another story, that was a really special event. I mean, and it was so cool there to see how much of it was carried by the students, right? The students are getting so involved in social prescribing. 

CLYDE: And it had a national footprint, which I was really struck by in terms of some of the folks.And then I, you know, coming across you like, yeah, I'm writing a book about this. And that may have been like 18 months ago. So you were probably well on your way to, you know, drafts, I would imagine, you know, considering how long it takes to write a book. And what struck me was, you know how international The exploration is, you know, in what you've written specifically Europe.We'll talk about that in a minute. But I would love to just sort of start with, you know Jules Hopps, like who you are as a journalist and a human being. You know, what brought you to journalism? Like, how did you arrive at this calling? Because it is not for the faint of heart, you know, it's not for the big bucks. From a crafts and makers perspective. Who is Jules Hotz and or Julia Hotz professionally? Your friends call you Jules, so like it or not, I'm a friend. And I'm going to call you Jules you know, Jules, like, how did you arrive at this particular calling as a journalist and as someone who is  attempting and working to make an impact in, with their work? 

JULES: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Clyde. I remember meeting you so well. You bring. So much warmth to this movement. And that's what it's all about. And honestly, to answer your question, that is what got me in the door of, of this work. You know, I did not set out to be a journalist. I definitely did not set out to sort of get involved in health research. I myself am not always the healthiest person by the books, but it just so happened about six years ago when I was in graduate school. I  always wanted to be a professor, do research, and I was studying sociology and had been really struck by the UK's appointment of their Minister of Loneliness. So the UK, yeah, they were the first country in the world to do this. They actually appointed a Minister of Loneliness in recognition of the fact that loneliness is not just a mental health problem. Problem. It's a physical health problem. It's a public health problem. And in a place like the UK, where their health care system is nationalized there was, you know, not only like a, a health incentive to get on this, but also sort of an economic incentive. I think there was a statistic saying that one in five people who go to the doctor do so for social reasons.  And so. Here I was in 2018, not a journalist, but really interested in this and decided to make my graduate school dissertation all about what this minister of loneliness should do. So yeah, I remember this is a really unconventional way of doing research, but I thought, you know, I don't want to interview people in a sterile classroom one by one. I want to actually do something with a group of people and sort of tap into the wisdom of the group. So. I long story short, I did these cooking workshops, which if you know me is hilarious because I'm actually a pretty terrible cook. But you know, cooking and eating together, it's something our ancestors have done. It's so natural and important. You know, the ancient philosophers saying you should never eat alone. And so I wanted to tap into people who were experiencing loneliness. Let's have a meal together and let you tell me what you think this minister should do.  That is when somebody told me about social prescribing.At the time it was very, very new. Nobody was really talking about it at the level they are talking about now. And I just thought of this concept for our listeners who don't know social prescribing of health workers, doctors, and therapists working with other health professionals to literally prescribe community resources and activities. Just thought this was really interesting. And so long story short, I wrote all that up. My advisor very kindly told me this is great. This is interesting. This is not academia. And so I pivoted.  And I wanted to do journalism doing these kinds of interviews, but really focused on systemic solutions, not just reporting on the problem, but reporting on what people are doing to solve it. And everywhere I went, it seemed like They were converging on some kind of solution around getting more people into their communities to do activities they find meaningful, whether it's men's sheds for older men dealing with loneliness. These are about men coming together to, you know, do hardware projects together. Whether it's here in Brooklyn, we have a library that rents out musical instruments. I was writing lots and lots of stories like this and finally after writing one big one on social prescribing itself a few years later, decided to turn it into a book and you pitch it. 

CLYDE: And the rest is history as they say, right?

JULES: And the rest is history. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, you know, to you, I realize I'm kind of avoiding your question. Like who am I? What do I have to do with this? I always told myself, Oh, I'm just objectively reporting on this as somebody interested in healthcare and policy. But as I started reporting on it. I realized this was the book I needed to read. I realized that even though, you know, knock on wood, I haven't had such debilitating health issues or diagnosis, I have felt some symptoms of depression and anxiety and stress and ADHD and maybe these social prescriptions can help me too. 

CLYDE: We're all human, right? I mean, we're all, we're, we're all, we're all on a spectrum together.

Ultimately, you know, there is no binaries as you know, and there's no, I think that, you know, to, to, so thank you for just sort of like coming, just naming how you came to your work as a craft thinking initially, I'm going to be this sociological researcher, social science. And then you're like, wait, You know, perhaps academia is not, I'm surmising here, you know is not the route. I'm going to go this route. And you just sort of were leaning into this out of your own curiosity and interest clearly with this notion of a minister of loneliness. It's interesting how that's another story too, in terms of  the government response, the public response. And I think we can, we'll, we'll maybe get into that towards the end of the conversation about what you've learned and, you know, the, the, the blue sky magic-wand question You know, how you would, you know, address this in our country, you know, cause yes, the public health system in the UK and in some of the other places, you know, other countries is it's certainly not it's also the bullet, it has problematics that are weightless, all these things. It's also not economically catastrophic or potentially for people, right? Like it's also not that. You know, to be as simplistic as possible about it, you know and you know, so we'll, we'll get into a little bit of the, you know the, the the, some of those kinds of macro details in a moment, but I want to take one more step back, you know, and just say that we're talking to, you know, Julia Hotz who wrote this incredible book on social prescribing. It is called THE CONNECTION CURE,  the Prescriptive Power of Movement, Nature, Art, Service, and Belonging. Right? That's right. And it is published by Simon Schuster and you spent a good deal of your young journalistic career in and around this subject. It is not, you didn't just catch the wave, you know? You've been curious and inquisitive about this particular thing, and it has led you to this particular moment. And, you know, it's led us here together because, you know, my own curiosities have led me to this project as a creative producer and, you know, artist and maker, you know? So it's great for us to be crossing paths.

What is the 30 second elevator pitch on social prescribing? What is it? 

JULES: Totally. Social prescribing, formal definition, is a process through which health workers co produce a social prescription that is a non medical community activity or resource with their patients to address their health issues and improve their community connection. So that means a social prescription can cover everything from housing support  and legal aid and fresh produce to cycling classes, to art workshops, to hiking excursions. It's really anything that addresses our social determinants of health and addresses that question of not just what's the matter with you, but what matters to you. 

CLYDE: That's the key. What matters to you. 

JULES: How'd I do? 30 seconds? 

CLYDE: That was beautiful. No, you, you, you know, you, you, you, you got the words like, you know, tattooed in your brain already, you know, but I, I love I love that because, you know, not too long ago, my, my mother in law is 70 and she's a very vivacious, vibrant seven year old. And, you know, someone reached out to her recently, you know, following up with her. I don't, I'm not sure if it was a health care provider but it was someone sort of checking in, right, so it may have been a CHW or one of, and, and she's, you know, she was like, I'm fine, and yeah, but you know what I really need? I need a male partner to dance with. Can you get me that?  And I was like, that's so subscribing right there. That's it. 

JULES: I love that so much. That's reminding me of a story from the book. It's funny how that is such a common social prescription. And long story short, you know, this patient had been really lonely.

She'd been struggling with depression. She'd been struggling with Parkinson's. She was on 12 medications. And the doctor noticed she kept coming back to the, to the doctors. And she said, Oh, I, I'm just coming here. Cause I need social company because I like to see you. And the doctor uncovers that, you know, what sort of, what matters to her. Turns out she used to love salsa dancing when she was younger.  Prescribes her a spot and a salsa dancing club doesn't see her for a while. And then when she does come in, guess who she brings with her…her salsa dancing partner, Jeremy. So we've got the class and the partner. 

CLYDE: Yes. Where was that? What, you know, since the book is so expansive, where was that you know, that what geographically, what location was that at? I'm curious.  

JULES: Yeah, so that was in the UK. It would have been near Devon. Devon's a kind of the Southwest UK. And this was years ago and it was the story of It's actually a medical student, Bogdan Sivoguerka, who made that social prescription and said it was like his before and after moment dealing with this social prescription for this woman. 

CLYDE: It's beautiful. And, and I would say that's one of the things I really love about the approach you've taken in the book. And I think it's really near and dear to us as storytellers, is that you really like zero in on people.  You know, because ultimately, you know, that's what this is about. It's about us.It's about each other. It's about people, you know, so you know, the sort of structure of, you know, the, the profile and, and, and sort of creating that background around some of these folks in the book. I'm thinking about it. You know, the arts prescription in the early part of the book, right? Yeah. Kewin and Jonas, two very different backgrounds, two very different people yet there are these very important parallels to their own respective experiences in and around art and culture. Art experiences and artistic expression as a method. It isn't the only one. As we've already talked about, I think both of us are probably fulfilled by the service aspect as well of our work and our callings, right? You know, which is a whole nother way to be more connected and to feel better and to release those good. Hormones and things in our body that, that help us de inflame and all that stuff.  

JULES: Totally. I'm so glad you pointed that out. And I, maybe this is a little meta to be talking about this with you and in the context of Arts For Everybody, but it's true that arts and ee could have a whole other conversation about what art is, but I think a fundamental part of that is sharing stories, telling stories, listening to stories, seeing ourselves in other stories. That is a fundamental aspect of art. It's a fundamental aspect of how we evolve to live and to survive and I think that has been very forgotten.  In terms of what we consider to be medicinal and healing, and I loved the research in that chapter because it shows us that actually this form of storytelling, like it's not just a nice-to-have, actually hearing someone else's story and recognizing our own journey in it that can reduce our anxiety that can bring us comfort that can make us feel less lonely that can shift our perspective and give us confidence and help us get our self esteem back. So yeah, I, that was very intentional to lead with storytelling as, as you are also doing in your incredible work, right? Like we're practicing what we preach, right? 

CLYDE: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. I, and, and it's, I find it impossible when people ask me, okay, so, you know, “tell me about your favorite location or the favorite piece of art that's happening.” So I'm going to revert that. I'm going to turn that to you now and, and, and force you potentially to tell me out of all the stories that are abound in the book, THE CONNECTION CURE. You know, what, what, what are the one or two that really stand out? You've already referenced one in terms of the salsa dancer and her bringing her salsa partner and like, stop going to the doctor just to show up because she found this other thing, clearly. But like, so you share the story, but if you Can surface a story or two that have a lot of resonance for you around the power of the possibilities of this when we really give it a look at it within the United States context. What are they? Can you, can you think of one or two? 

JULES: I can and I'll be careful because again, it's like picking a favorite child. 

CLYDE: It's hard. It's so hard. But I'm going to, I'm going to force you into that because  I'm not going to do it. You're not going to get me to pick.  

JULES: Totally. So we can say, let's talk about maybe what is, what is the most relevant for our shared work? And honestly, one that I found just a ton of personal resonance with is the story of this guy named Jonas.  And when I meet Jonas, you know, I'm immediately struck by how curious he is. I'm struck by how knowledgeable he is about history. He's giving me all these fun facts about the Roman empire.And so I'm really seeing that sort of. You know, history. And he tells me he loved reading fantasy books as a child playing computer games. I'm seeing that stories are something that matters to him, right? Histories, fantasy stories.  And I'm also seeing because he tells me this, that Jonas had struggled with debilitating anxiety. Social anxiety was one diagnosis. Panic disorder was another. Agoraphobia was a third. Sort of the fear of public spaces. Yes. And I thought, wow, this is such a shame that this person has this diagnosis where they're afraid of public spaces and intimidated by socializing because actually this person, I think, would really benefit from some of the artistic spaces and cultural institutions in his community. So Jonas, I should say, is in Denmark, by the way. He's a little bit older than me. He's about 36 years old  and once he gets these diagnoses and his symptoms get worse and worse, he starts getting panic attacks every time he has to leave the house. He eventually leaves work altogether. And he tries all these different therapies. He tries medication, he tries talk therapy, some of that helped him a little bit, but by the end of it, he said, you know, “I was just sort of in this gray space where I was  every day kind of felt the same. I was living, but I wasn't really having a life.” And so finally, because of where Jonas lives, he's eligible to be prescribed a spot in this program called Culture Vitamins. I love that name because it tells you even that this is not just about treating sickness. This is about people who want to get well. We all need culture. We all need arts. So what that entails practically is a spot in a group that meets once a week. about eight to 10 weeks and actually goes around and tests out different cultural activities in their community. Everything from concerts to museum visits to a mural art making session to a library read aloud. That ends up being one of Jonas's favorites.  By the end of the course, he says something really interesting. He says, you know, “when I was going to my doctor and when I was going to my therapist, All they wanted to talk about was my anxiety. How's your anxiety? What's going on with your anxiety?” And he said, it kind of felt like a self fulfilling prophecy. “Every time I thought about it, I you know, I ruminated on it and it didn't feel like me.” He says, when I went to go for my social prescription through Culture Vitamins, I finally felt like myself again.The focus wasn't on my anxiety. The focus was on my joy. He says, “when I would get home at the end of the day and I'd talk to my parents, I finally had something to talk about.” And more than that, he said, he really felt the effects of this even after the prescription ended. He says now when he first of all, you know, he feels more comfortable leaving the house. He goes to visit his local museum. He goes to visit the library, has joined this sort of book club thing. But he says, you know, now I know I have tools to cope with my anxiety. When I have this thought that I can't let go of, I'll try to escape through art. Maybe that's a book. Maybe it's a book I've read a hundred times, but it comes back to this thing we're talking about: being able to get lost in another story makes us feel better about our own. 

CLYDE: Yeah. And to have that,  to, to have that knowing already, right. Where it's like, If things are setting in and you, and you suffering from acute anxiety to take that step even of, I'm going to go do this thing and sort of break what tends to be that vicious cycle for those who, you know are really ailed by, you know, anxiety, cause we all to your point earlier are affected in different ways. We feel anxiety. We might be mildly depressed, but the thing is, does it spiral, right? Right. Does it, does it become acute?  Exactly. So, that as a tool is more priceless than the anxiety medication that he might be taking on a regular basis as well, because that's your own efforts in work. 

JULES: A thousand percent. And that's exactly it. And you know, I always say social prescriptions are not a replacement for other kinds. We need all the options on the menu. Right. But I think you're totally right that even for those of us who don't have symptoms that are so debilitating, all of us occasionally feel anxious. I feel anxious and I was really inspired by Jonas. When I had been dealing with something,  this anxious thing that happened in my life, I kind of lost sleep over it. I did that thing you're not supposed to do. And I stayed up at 3 a. m. ruminating about it. I ended up prescribing myself this sort of slow looking program, this was designed in Australia, that invites you to slowly look at a piece of artwork and pay really close attention to its details. And it's been found that doing this actually does reduce our anxiety, even if it's not, you know, clinical or at the levels of which we have an anxiety disorder. Doing this really can bring us calm and joy. And it really worked for me.  

CLYDE: That's amazing. You self-prescribed an arts prescription. 

JULES: I did. I did! And I,  so yeah, what's great is this program. Like I said, it's in Australia. So I did this like online version of it with my friend, but then I took those principles and actually did it in real life at the Guggenheim in New York. Because I found out that as a New Yorker, I have something called Culture Pass, which makes me eligible to go to all these things. 

CLYDE: Yes, through the ibrary card?  I think it's associated.

JULES: That's right. And so through that, you know, there are tons of cultural institutions we New Yorkers can go to for free. So I also prescribed myself that with another friend and got to kind of do it all again.  

CLYDE: That's really beautiful, Jules, and you bring up another point that's really, like, critical for us, which is access. Right? How, how do you reduce the barriers to access? You just alluded to one, Culture Pass, tied to your library card. So if you have a library card, there are a  multitude of institutions across New York City that people have access to. I know that was replicated in places like Dallas, where I live, which was, you know, so it's a beautiful model. And yet still, you have to know about it as a resource, right? So there's that sort of general awareness. And then there are places where access is vastly different. Right?  As you very well know, you know, and those are many of the same communities that we're currently working with and collaborating with around Arts For Everybody. And part of our point is actually just need to look a little bit closer to what is around you to think about access differently in terms of, you know, where the artists or the culture bearers or the storytellers or the weavers are. You know, in that very community as an asset for others to become a part of as well, if they so choose.So we're attempting to make that case because, you know, the Guggenheim is in New York City, you know and, you know, not in Phillips County, Arkansas, you know, or Utica, Mississippi, yet they have, you know, beautiful, wondrous things around them, including the natural environment, which is which is a whole nother part of, you know the book and the idea of social prescribing and what actually has been prescribed by some of, you know the folks that you taught you, you profile in the book. So, I have a another question for you in terms of, you know infrastructure and what you've learned. So you spent a lot of time across the world and then at some point you sort of pivoted back to the United States to see how you know, it was looking here. We know our healthcare system is both innovative and problematic.

Right? In its own way there are different access points in some places, you know women, for example, don't have a GYN OBGYN within 100 miles of them.  Just because of where they are, you know, physically location wise. And other other reasons. So the United States does not have a singular system. You know, we have a patchwork of systems. So I'm just curious from your perspective, now that you've, you know, really looked at things internationally, when you pivot back to the United States and what is emerging here, right? Because it is very much an emergence. Right? Of pilots and various activities. What do you see as some of the barriers of access to social prescribing in the broader sense? We don't have to get into the weeds and the type of, you know, model or piece. What do you, what do you see as some of the challenges within our country around this very meaningful and affordable, approach to complementing  the existing medical system? 

JULES: Yeah, that's a great question. It's probably the number one question I get, you know, when they hear about this book, they think, okay, that's great. The UK is doing that, but the U S and the UK are so different, you know, for one, they have a, as we said earlier, a national healthcare system. So taxpayers pay in and everybody gets care here in the United States. We're the only country in which a significant proportion of our population does not have any form of insurance. So there's that. We also within that system, even if somebody does have insurance, we have tremendous health inequities in terms of access to the kind of care you can receive wait times, level of expertise, you know, that very much varies based on your zip code, which is a tragic truth of being in the United States. Like most things where you live really does influence your access. And on top of that, you know, we have this really unique relationship with big pharma, with pharmaceutical companies who have historically kind of held a big spot in our healthcare system, which is great in a lot of ways. Again, I'm a big fan of modern medicine, but also, it makes it less likely, maybe, that you know, prescriptions for art and nature and movement will have as much of a cultural say in how we do health care.  So those are some obstacles, right? Among many, many others. Also, you know, our size. We're an enormous country. And so when I wrote this book, I tried to really break those obstacles down. You know, can social prescribing work in a big country? Yes, it works in Canada. Can social prescribing work in a country that also has a private healthcare system? Yes, it works in Australia and the Netherlands. So I think when I, I think that when we talk about, you know, can social prescribing exist in the United States, which by the way, there's a great organization called Social Prescribing USA, that's trying to make that happen by 2035. I think we need to break things down. Just as the sort of perennial question of social prescribing with patients is - what matters to you? I think we need to ask that question in local communities at the state level, at the city level, and talk about mobilizing the resources that do exist in terms of delivering these social prescription programs. In other words, I don't think there is going to be a magic wand where, boom, everyone has social prescribing available to them. We suddenly have, you know, universal insurance that covers it. We have community partners that are linked with insurers to provide this. I do think it's going to take a lot of grassroots organizing and sharing of templates. And I don't think, I know, because this is actually already happening in exciting ways, right? So let's take the arts, for example, you know Massachusetts about, I guess it was four years ago now, did this really innovative pilot in which they tried prescribing cultural spots and cultural institutions to people all across the state. And sure enough, they found it was tremendously successful. Not only did the patients love it, but the providers loved it. That went on to then inspire a first of its kind pilot in New Jersey. Where the institution NJPAC, New Jersey Performing Arts Center, 

CLYDE: Shout out to Hattie Meyers, who runs that program. 

JULES: Yes, amazing, we love her NJPAC has teamed up with Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield, an insurer. To actually replicate some of the successes from that program and have insurance cover it.  Now that's expanded a version of that to California with folks like Art Pharmacy. We're back in Massachusetts scaling it. And that's just arts. I mean, and of course, Dr. Jill Sankey, the folks at University of Florida,  Center of Arts and Medicine, Dr. Tasha Golden. I mean, there are so many individuals we can call out that have just been so instrumental to making social prescribing happen in their communities. And it's the same story for nature prescriptions, for parks prescriptions. Started in California, you know, has spread across the country. Now there's a national parks prescribing database. There's a really innovative model walk with a doctor started in Columbus, Ohio, by this really passionate cardiologist, Dave Sapgier now has 500 chapters around the world. So I think Clyde, it's stuff like this. It's really dedicated, committed professionals of which there are so many in the United States saying, I'm going to try this out with my community. I'm going to get a nonprofit on board. I'm going to get a university on board. I'm going to get you know, a health provider on board, and then I'm going to try to spread it. That is how I think we see social prescribing becoming more mainstream in the United States and Arts For Everybody's a beautiful example of that. It's not that they're isn't will to make this happen. It's not that there aren't beautiful examples of community partners delivering what could be art prescriptions. It's just a matter of connecting those dots.

CLYDE: That's right. That's right. It's connecting the dots. It's telling those stories and laying out the different ways it could be done. Because when I see, you know, the potential obstacles in a place like the United States, where there's a patchwork of public and private, and, you know, places where there's infrastructure or the lack thereof, specifically related to public health or healthcare providing, it's also about the bespoke approaches, which is a word that we use a lot internally as we talk about each collaborating partner that everybody needs what they need and as long as they can articulate that. between themselves and each other, we can do what we can do as the national collaborator to support that because they've identified. It's not coming from us. It's coming from you. Yes. And then we sort of reverse engineer into that fixed or particular hack. Right? So that's the upside of the patchwork is that, you know, communities and states at whatever level, because you just laid out so many wonderful examples, could sort of look internally first and decide what is that system, what, where, how can we lean into this possibility from a pilot perspective? You know, as a resident of Dallas, our, our, our, you know, Our our director for the Office of Arts and Culture is very interested in piloting our arts social prescribing program. And she was able to, you know, talk to Michael Babbitt from, you know, the Massachusetts Council on the Arts, and people like Chris Appleton from Arts Pharmacy and others to sort of figure out, okay, what is our model going to be? Who is our healthcare provider? Where can we start? You know, and then where can that lead us, but, you know, starting somewhere that makes sense, you know and we're seeing that happen across several of the sites that are leaning into social prescribing, like Urban Health Plan in The Bronx, you know. 

JULES: Exactly, exactly.That's exactly it. 

CLYDE: Yeah. They're like, we're already collaborating with organizations. We want to lean into the arts for our staff, for our clients. And, you know, we have 10 arts and cultural organizations around us. So we actually have a tremendous amount of assets. We just need to connect the dots. 

JULES: A thousand percent and you know that's such a great point, you know, again, it's coming back to this like what matters to you and it's about recognizing that there is a tremendous history of things that look like social prescribing in the United States. I’m glad you brought up Urban Health Plan. You know, community health workers have been doing this work for six decades, right? The work of connecting patients to activities and resources in their communities. Even before this again, wasn't called social prescribing, but there was a really great movement out of Boston in which doctors and again, community health workers, social workers were connecting people to food, to legal aid, to housing support, you know, to books. This has been happening for, for three decades. And it's just exciting now that thanks to you and thanks to others in this movement, we sort of have an umbrella of being able to say, okay, you've been doing this work. You might not, I have called it social prescribing, but it is. So, you know, we want you to, to come and join this network and join this movement. Because you're so right. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. We just have to use the resources we've got, build the will or not even build the will, you know, build on the will that already exists to do this work.

CLYDE: Yeah, I think it's, it's how do we bring more of us along, right?  And not attempt to sort of frame this from an outside-in kind of thing. You know, I think early on when we started to lean into, you know, the project and moving towards it, it was also very important to acknowledge this very fact that this work already exists. There was no first, there was no only, there was no, like, you know, we, some of our NativeAmerican brothers and sisters on divisions folks have reminded us from the beginning that they don't differentiate even between arts and culture and healing like it is a comprehend it is it is like life itself in terms of how they are, you know, so it is kind of like this important thing to recognize that it is deeply human and at the same time, perhaps through specialization and, you know, the creation of a for profit component to health care, you know, and, you know, what you can charge, you know, we've sort of created all these segments. Like, I really found it interesting how you alluded to some of the, um, creation. And manufacturing of things like SSRIs, you know, when, you know, some of those drugs were meant to be used for something else, but then there was a discovery about their function and purpose on another level, you know, so then all of a sudden there was this switch and that then that opened the door to a diversification of products. If you will. And then each one of those products is its own patent with IP that's associated with a for profit component. And I think that's, you know, we're, we're probably coming to a point where we could also acknowledge that maybe we need a little more balance in our country overall, you know, between sort of the market segmentation commodification of every resource to a space where there's this more common good. And I don't think that's necessarily anti-democratic or anti Republican, if you will, you know to think about the common good overall. 

JULES: Absolutely. Oh, it's such a funny phrase you're using because that's exactly what the call was in England. Like, let's create a health care system for the common good and let's iterate on that health care system to build in social prescribing because it's for the common good. I think in the U. S. for all the reasons you've outlined we, we, we haven't historically had as much that sort of call to action, but what we do have, in the face of adversity and oppression and inequities, we have so many people in local communities resisting that building on the resources they have. And so I think that needs to be more part of the story. That's kind of what I come to conclude at least in the chapter on the US, you know, I was really skeptical, like, how could this ever work in a place where, you know, those market forces are so strong, but I think people are really savvy. I think people are fed up with the current system. And I think that the way that change happens in this country is when you have grassroots organizations working together to build sort of a whole greater than the sum of its parts. You know, we've seen that in our movement for parks, for libraries, for fair wages, for working hours. I think that's going to be the story of social prescribing too.

CLYDE: Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, we spent 4. 5 trillion in healthcare. In the United States, that's an astronomical, astronomical amount of money, right? Most of that is towards treating chronic illnesses, some of which are preventable, you know, and the either emergency room surgeries or pharmaceuticals, you know, in terms of expenses. And just to think if we could peel away two to 3 percent of that investment. Or that those expenses into, you know, these bespoke sorts of approaches and, and sort of create the, the time necessary because that feels like another important element that sort of like underpinning the book is like, the time, you know, we need to invest in to a get to a place of trust when you ask the question, what matters to you? You know, and then also the sort of due diligence so that, you know, folks are fine. The Culture Vitamin as a program, you know, or that group fishing program, you know, love to fish or, you know, or the, the open ocean swimmers group,  whatever that particular thing is, the sort of like. That takes time, you know, because building trust, to paraphrase Adrienne Maree Brown's work, you know, you, you, you have to operate at that speed.

JULES: Oh, that's right. Operating at the speed of trust. It's so key. That's right. And you're so right. Cause for a lot of reasons, people have every right to be mistrustful of healthcare. Not because the people working in healthcare have, you know, committed any wrongdoing, but because it's just a system that's not always set up to support all of us. And so we have to be candid about that when we're introducing anything new. But what I love about social prescribing is that it doesn't assume that we're starting with that, first of all, and because it is so bespoke, you know, I think in the past, doctors and social workers have said, yeah, you should exercise more or yeah, you should get out of your house more, go meet some people, but without also the material resources and connections and accountability of that doctor, making sure that you're set up in a space to do that, you know, not just an abstract, go do this thing, but Hey, here's a prescription for a group. It meets Tuesdays at 10 AM. Here's a bus pass to get there. That's what it's about. It's about anticipating, you know, the barriers and anticipating that trust needs to be earned. It's not a given. 

CLYDE: So beautiful. I mean, we're hearing that now with our collaborators at the, at the Department of Cultural Affairs in Chicago, you know, who are embedded 10 artists across five behavioral health clinics. And the artists are not, you know, they're being trained as community health workers but they're really there to just do what they do as artists, and as building relationships, build activities that are responsive to, you know, what clients and, and staffers are sharing with them in terms of what their interests are. Synthesizing that and in creating new sorts of spaces and existing ones, right? Because that's also possible. You can reimagine infrastructure, right? Physical environment, you know, the environment around you all. And that's part of the hope, but that takes time, you know, very much as a pilot. So. I know we're coming at time, Jules, and, and, you know, we got other things we have to do, but I'm going to ask you the magic wand blue sky question, right? And that is, if you could do one thing in our country, as you know, Arts for EveryBody is a, is a national project. We're working with 18 cities and towns around the country. It's just a drop in the bucket. Quite frankly, our country's massive. It is huge. It is diverse. It is pluralistic. It is beautiful. It is complicated. It is ugly. All the things exist at the same time, that complexity. But to, to, to be, if, if you can wade the wand, and do one thing towards this effort  from your point of view,  Jules Hotz, the writer of THE CONNECTION CURE, what would it be for us as a country? 

JULES: That's such a great question.  Not to not to steal your answer or steal your philosophy, but I think it's recognizing that it comes down to everybody. Yes, it would be amazing if social prescriptions got the six billion dollar advertising budget that pharmaceuticals get. Yes, it would be amazing if medical schools required social prescribing as part of their curriculum as the UK does. Yes, it would be amazing if there was sort of a national trust that communities could apply to. But I think at the end of the day, the one thing that we can do and we must do right now is for all of us to start talking about it, start talking about social prescribing, let that be a word in your vocabulary. When you or someone you know is feeling anxious or depressed or lonely or isolated or distracted. Let it be known that social prescriptions actually can help. They're not just nice to have, there's a huge body of science. They're also very likely, to your point, already exist. It's just a matter of, you know, those dots being connected. Because I think at the end of the day, the more we talk about it, the more we can manifest it into existence. It's really going to take all of us, especially in the U S, with a very quick fix culture, to turn the question back on ourselves. What matters to us and start Integrating movement, nature, art, service, belonging into more of our lives and also thinking about it as a way to do health care a little differently. 

CLYDE: Julia Hotz, the writer of THE CONNECTION CURE, thank you for joining me and us on this journey. Thank you for your service and your contribution  to what is infinitely bigger than us. And hopefully we can be pebbles in a much bigger ripple of work around this movement and the improvement of our communities and country overall.Really, really appreciate you, my friend.

JULES: Oh, amen. Back at you, Clyde. Thank you for, for  putting so much fire and passion and love into this movement. I will see you on July 27th. I'm so excited and I'm so grateful for you in bringing these threads together. You're going to be up in the Bronx where the people are fresh. That's right. I'm going to see Andrea. I'm going to be in the Bronx 8:45 AM. I will be there. 

CLYDE: Beautiful, beautiful Julia. Thank you. And I hope to see you soon.